SGU Episode 33

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SGU Episode 33
March 9th 2006
(brief caption for the episode icon)
SGU 32                      SGU 34
Skeptical Rogues
S: Steven Novella
B: Bob Novella
J: Jay Novella
E: Evan Bernstein
P: Perry DeAngelis
Guest
R: Rebecca Watson
Links
Download Podcast
Show Notes
SGU Forum

Introduction

You're listening to the Skeptics' Guide to the Universe, your escape to reality.

Hello and welcome to the Skeptics' Guide to the Universe. Today is Thursday March 9, 2006. This is your host, Steven Novella, president of the New England Skeptical Society. With me today, as always, is Perry DeAngelis...

P: Yes. I'm here.

S: Evan Bernstein...

E: Hello, everyone.

S: And Bob Novella.

B: Good evening.

S: Well, for those of you out here who maybe have not listened to our podcast before, just a little bit about the Skeptics' Guide. We are a discussion—a weekly podcast that we discuss science items, skeptical items, paranormal, pseudo-science, controversial claims. The kinds of news items that get missed by the mainstream media. And we discuss everything from a very hard-nosed scientific point of view.

P: We are both riveting and entertaining.

S: Absolutely. And we have fun doing it.

P: (chuckles) Yes.

S: Coming on our show in just a little bit is Rebecca Watson. Rebecca is the founder of the Skepchicks organization; we'll be talking to her in just a moment. But first, we'll start, as usual, with some news items; things that have caught our attention over the last week.

News Items

Magnet Therapy (1:27)

S: The British national health service recently decided to pay for magnet therapy to help prevent chronic ulcers. Now, England—Britain,as you may or may not know, has a national health service. They have socialized medicine, although what they have is a two-tiered health system. There's a private health system for people who have money and there's a national health service for everybody else. So, this is basically a government-run health care system. And they decide, from the top down, at a bureaucratic level, what they're going to pay for and what they're not going to pay for. And they decided—this is the first time they're deciding to pay for magnet therapy for anything. Which was, you know, quite a bit of news. Of course, the alternative medicine proponents are hailing this as a victory.

P: (chuckles) (English accent) Bunch of bloody rot.

Interview with Rebecca Watson, founder of the Skepchicks (23:00)

S: Joining us now is Rebecca Watson. Rebecca, welcome to The Skeptic's Guide

R: Thanks! Good to be here.

S: Rebecca is the founder of the Skepchick organization. She is a freelance writer, and a skeptical activist. You can read about her organization at Skepchick.org. Among other things, the organization is the publisher of the Skepchick calendar. Rebecca, why don't you tell us about the calendar? How did you get started with that?

R: Well, actually, the calendar started the whole organization. It was just 12 of us got together, and we wanted to raise some money to send some women to The Amaz!ng Meeting in Las Vegas, hosted by the James Randi Educational Foundation. And hopefully just to get more women involved in skepticism. And we thought we would sell a few to our friends; but then word spread, and it ended up being a really big hit. So we just kind of ran with it. And that's how Skepchicks started. That's how the online magazine got started and everything.

S: So, who would have figured a calendar with semi-nude ladies on it would have been popular.

R: (Laughs) We had no idea. (Laughs)

B: Rebecca, how do I get one of those calendars?

R: We're actually all sold out of the 2006 calendar. Yeah, you should have gotten on it earlier. But we do have calendars coming out in 2007. And we've got a great lineup of people involved. And in fact, we're going to be doing two different calendars – one of all women, and one of all men.

B: Oh!

R: So that's pretty exciting.

S: Now, Bob is pretty buff. You may want to interview for the Skepchick ...

P: Hey, we have some pretty firm flesh at the New England Skeptical Society.

R: Well, you know, if you'd like to apply, go for it. You will be up against some pretty heavy hitters that we already have signed on though, like the bad astronomer, Phil Plait is going to be in it. And, in fact, James Randi already sent in his photo. So he's definitely going to be in it. (Bob laughs) And let me tell you, it's a good photo. (Laughs) So, we're very excited.

B: That'd be awesome. Wow.

S: That sounds great, yeah. So, it's a very, it's a fun project. And that, the calendar started it, and then that led you into skeptical activism in general, just with the skeptic organ... So what else have you been doing?

R: Well, what we first set up was the online magazine, and that comes out every month on the 15th. We've got the March one coming up soon. And that's been really great, and it's gotten some really good feedback. And I also started up a daily blog, which is just me commenting on various happenings of the day. And that's good, because it gets people coming back to the site every day. And so it's also been pretty popular.

And then coming up, we want to eventually start setting up chapters around the country and around the world, where women can get together and discuss certain critical thinking topics, or host lectures, things like that.

S: Excellent, excellent. Now, of course, the interesting thing about this is this is always a topic that comes up in skeptical circles, is why are there so few women in skeptical activism?

R: Exactly.

S: I don't think that anyone has the definitive answer to that question, but since you're involved, what's your opinion? Have you thought much about this?

R: Well, yeah, I have given it a lot of thought, and I'm really not sure. I think it's actually a lot of factors. And one of the ones that I'm trying to tackle with skepchicks is just kind of making it - making science in general – more available to women, and showing them that it can be fun, and interesting to use science in your every day life.

S: Right.

R: I think that's really important. And I think that's important across the board is showing men too how science relates to your every day life, and how amazing science is; and how much crap is out there that they need to be wary of.

B: I think, yeah, I think part of it's cultural. Women, I think, are generally steered away from the hard sciences, just in general. I mean, you don't see, I don't think there's too many – compared to men – women in skeptical graduate courses, or I mean, scientific, like physics, and things like that.

P: Well, in recent months I've seen ads on television about girls staying with math and science as they get a little older, and when I researched those ads a little bit, I saw that behind them was in fact the Girl Scouts of America. They have a "Science is cool" website. And people are certainly conscious of it; they're pushing for it.

S: But you know that kind of campaign to get women more involved in science has been going on for 10, 20 years now. And it's working. The number of women in college in general, and in the math and science is steadily increasing. And, in fact, it's overtaking men!

R: Actually, I just heard that on I think NPR. They were talking about that just the other day.

S: That's right.

R: And I thought, "Oh! Wow! I might be a ... our organization might be out of business." (Laughs)

S: Right, right. But, in 20 years, if the trends continue, women may really be dominating higher education and specifically the sciences. Certainly, they've already tipped over into the majority in the health sciences, which I think is generally, has always been a little bit more appealing to women for whatever reason.

R: There is one thing, an interesting fact is that even though we have more women who are studying math and science, they're still having a lot of trouble keeping them in academia. A lot of them end up falling out of it and going towards more independent corporations and whatnot.

S: (Inaudible) smart.

R: Yeah, I was just talking to one of the skepchicks – I believe it's Miss August. We just got a ('inaudible) at the MIT for graduate studies, and she was telling me how she just doesn't see a lot of women in those upper echelons of academia. And so, there's a big push to figure out why that is. And, of course, you guys know about Larry Summers, the President at Harvard who just ..

B: Yeah.

R: So, there's definitely a lot of people talking about it. Unfortunately, it's kind of taboo, but hopefully we can keep talking about it.

S: What did you think about the Summers incident?

R: Well, I actually, I blogged about it, and it got some interesting reaction. I'm a little torn about it. I think that there was definitely some over-reaction to what he said. I read over his speech, and I got the feeling that he was bringing up these hypotheses for why he feels maybe women aren't getting as involved as they should be.

And he was sort of attacked for those hypotheses when he wasn't saying that they were fact; he was just saying, "Let's explore these possibilities."

S: Right, right.

R: And I think that's fair. You should always be able to say, "Well, let's look into this, and study it, and see what's going on there." As opposed to saying, "You can't say that; that's sexist." I don't think it's ever sexist to say, "What if?"

S: Yeah, I agree. I think, for me, the biggest issue was that – and I'm an academic. I'm obviously a big fan of academia, and its roll in society. But I think at least in this country in the last couple of decades, a legitimate criticism of academia is that they actually are not upholding the highest principles of free speech and freedom of ideas.

I mean, there are speech codes on campuses. They actually use censorship. And there is this extreme expression, I find, of political correctness on campuses. And even though it may be motivated by legitimate and good principles like sensitivity and egalitarianism, etcetera, and openness etcetera. I think at the end of the day, it's censorship! And I think that was a particularly egregious example of it. And I agree – I think it was an incredible over-reaction. If you don't like what he said, then make a counter argument.

R: Exactly. Yeah. The response should never be, "How can we make him shut up?"

S: Right.

R: It should be, "Let's show him the evidence that he's wrong.

S: Right, exactly. And I think it's actually a very interesting debate, but one that doesn't get, I think, a fair and open discussion because a lot of the, any suggestion that maybe there's some inherent differences between men and women is just taboo within academic circles. And I think one of the principles of skepticism is that no idea should be taboo.

R: Exactly, I agree.

S: Whatever it is. No matter how distasteful you think it is, you counteract it, again, with arguments, not with censorship. It's similar to the David Irving incident, recently, where David Irving is the holocaust denier that was put in prison for denying the holocaust.

R: Right. In Austria was it?

S: In Austria; that's right. And somebody pointed out, I thought it was very accurate, that right on the heels of Europe essentially lecturing the world about freedom of expression over the Danish anti-Muslim cartoons, they put a guy in prison for just expressing an idea about history. As wrong as it is, it was incredibly hypocritical of them to do that.

R: Right. And those are the cases that really, really test us. We need to defend the speech even if it offends us horribly.

S: Right.

R: We just have to. There's no question about it. You can't throw somebody in jail just for being an idiot., unfortunately. (Laughs)

B: We don't have enough prisons.

(Laughter)

E: That would be true.

R: And plus, what would I do all day in prison?

S: That's right.

(Laughter)

S: Getting back to the women in skepticism issue just a little bit; I think even though women are increasing their presence in academia and in science, I don't know that I've seen that it's really penetrating the skeptical movement very much. I think in fact, if anything, you and the Skepchick organization are on the forefront of trying to break women into skepticism. But I haven't really seen much else, evidence of that.

I think there's something else other than science about skepticism – especially skeptical activism – that I think is just more appealing to men. Again, whether that's cultural or inborn is probably not resolvable at this point. But, there's something confrontational about it. There's confrontational about skepticism.

R: Exactly. Yeah.

S: You agree with that?

R: I do; definitely. I think that in general, I think it could be both a product of the environment and heredity. Men are just naturally more prone to, to be confrontational. And we encourage that amongst men, but not always so much amongst women.

S: Right.

R: And so, a lot of times, you find women who just want to be nice. They don't want to say, "Oh! Well that sounds like total bull." They want to, you know, get along with everyone. And I think they need to know that it's okay to say that, "Oh, that guy's not actually a psychic." Or, "You don't actually have to have a chakra." It's okay to say things like that.

P: What led you to a skeptical outlook yourself?

R: I usually like to say something like, "Oh, psychics killed my parents," or something. But ...

(Laughter)

R: I don't really have a spectacular story about it. I used to be a magician; and I learned about ...

P: That is excellent training ground for skeptics.

E: Oh yeah.

P: A magician.

R: It is. (Laughs) Although, you'd be surprised at how easy it is sometimes to compartmentalize things, and ...

B: Oh yeah.

R: so, you know, you don't really always apply what you know to everything. So eventually, I learned to do that. But I found Randi. I knew about him as a magician, and then I found out about what he was doing. And I basically just fell into it that way.

I got involved with his forum – his online forum – and that was really (inaudible) because that was just a way of connecting with other like-minded people. That I didn't really realize that community existed before. And since it was from that pool of people that I met the women that ended up doing the calendar with me, and organizing skepchicks. So, I'd say Randi was the big gateway drug, so to speak.

S: I have to ask you, how did you think of the name, "Skepchick?"

R: Actually, I didn't come up with that. I wish that I did. That was a name that was tossed at me the very first time I posted on the James Randi board. They said, "Oh good! Another skepchick! Finally!" And I'm like, "Okay, what's that?" (Laughs) That's clever, but do I need to pay some membership dues or something?

S: Right. The reason why I ask, is because I think I know who the original skepchick was.

R: Really?

S: I asked you about this on email when we were talking about doing the show. Now our, for a few years, our Massachusettes chapter was run by a woman by the name of Sheila Gibson, who insisted on being referred to as the Skepchick.

R: Ah! That's right. I remember you did ask me, and I never responded to you. I don't think I've ever met Sheila, but I've heard her name bandied about. And I think I need to meet her.

S: Yeah. She was a hoot! She really was.

P: She was, yeah.

B: She was a live wire, you might say.

P: You remember her once you meet her.

S: Yeah. She always used to wear gloves everywhere she went.

R: I keep hearing that she's a hoot and a holler. So ...

(Laughter)

E: Also a writer, wasn't she?

B: Yeah!

S: She was also a writer.

B: She did a bunch of articles.

P: She worked for Robb magazine? The Robb Report, was the magazine she worked for, at least when we knew her.

R: Shiela, if you're listening, email me, because we need to connect.

P: Right.

E: You'd better be listening.

(Laughter)

S: Well, I was looking through your blog, and the one for yesterday caught my eye because you write about Sniffly the Furry Lobster.

R: Yes! I'm in love with Sniffly the Furry Lobster.

B: Ah! He's awesome!

R: Don't you want one?

S: He's so cool looking.

B: I love his scientific name! Kiwa hirsuta is perfect! Absolutely perfect!

R: Well, you know, it's a good name, but I'm kind of partial to Sniffly.

S: You like Sniffly better?

B: Well, yeah. I just love how they threw in, you know, hirsut in his name, which means hairy. So it's just very apropos.

S: Well, what else you gonna call it? It actually caught my eye because until I saw that, I was gonna use that in Science or Fiction this week. So, the guys were all gonna see that, because they were going to your website.

R: You're gonna have a tough time for that, because I love weird news, so ...

B: But what a weird adaption that is! Why would you need to grow hair 4 or 5000 feet under water near a vent! That's where they live, right? Near these ...

S: Yes, the hydrothermal vents, right.

R: And silky, blonde hair.

B: Yeah, right. Not even dark. Just an incredible color. Unusual. What kind of adaption you think that might be ...

S: I can tell you what I read.

B: Sure, go ahead.

S: That the hair, the fine, hairy filaments

B: Oh, it captures minerals and stuff!

S: Bacteria, actually.

B: Bacteria!

S: Because, it's a home for bacteria, which helps them adapt to the hydrothermal vents. They serve some adaptive function for them.

B: Really!

S: Yes. That's the working hypothesis so far. Of course, this is a very recent find. So, it needs to be explored further. But that was the hypothesis that I read.

R: You know, I have silky, blonde hair, and now I'm a little worried about the bacteria.

(Laughter)

B: I just love that. The whole hydrothermal vent ecosystem is so fascinating! And to think that we had not a inkling of it just probably, what, a couple decades ago.

S: Right, it's about 30 years.

R: 30 years ago.

B: This whole ecosystem that's completely does not rely on photosynthesis. I mean, it doesn't need the sun to survive. And to me, that's important, because it points to the fact that there could be a lot more life on other planets out there, like Europa, where, just because you're not exposed to the sun, you don't need the sun. It could be, you know, instead of photosynthetic life, it's chemosynthetic life. I mean, all you'd really need is water, minerals, and some heat; and BAM! You could have evolution taking over. So it just – to me, it expanded the range of life in the solar – in the universe, really!

R: Well, yeah. Not to get too off topic, but did you see that the NASA just announced they found water on ...

S: Enceladus, yep.

B: It's erupting like a geyser, yeah.

S: Yes, actually, I think that that was a prior Science or Fiction, where I asked about ...

B: Yeah, volcanic activity.

S: Volcanic activity; and at the time there were only three places in the solar system: Earth, Io, and then the new one that was the subject of the ... which was Titan. Or it was Triton, sorry. It was Triton, which is a moon of Neptune. And now, this would be the fourth volcanic-type activity. And the question is, is this ice, which is rapidly turning into a gas, or is there actually liquid water just under the surface, that's coming out?

And if it's liquid water, that may expand by one the possible locations in the solar system that could be harboring life.

B: Right.

S: It's pretty cool .Maybe there's some Snifflies down there.

R: There may be.

(Laughter)

S: Some hairy lobsters from Enceladus.

R: Alien Snifflies

B: I'm surprised there's not more volcanism in the solar system considering Titan ... Jupiter, and Saturn have so many moons, and the tidal forces must be so great, that you would think that there would just be more volcanoes in the, around, orbiting those planets. Just because of the tidal forces, and how they react.

S: But, I think the reason for that, Bob, is that there's a narrow band of distance from that planet. Too far away, and the forces are not great enough to cause, to melt basically, the crust of the moon, and cause volcanic activity. And too close and you would break up and become a ring.

B: Right.

S: So, you have to be right in that zone.

B: The zone.

S: For Jupiter, the only planet in that zone is Io. The other ones are too far away. And farther in, you'd have just a thin ring.

B: Makes sense.

S: Well, speaking of Science or Fiction, why don't we go ahead and do Science or Fiction for this week. Rebecca has graciously agreed to participate.

Interview with Rebecca continued (55:21)

B: I want to mention Rebecca's Adventures in Online Dating.

S: Okay.

B: It was very interesting. Now, if I was doing online dating, and I came across this entry, I would literally think that somebody was putting me on, and saying, "Wait, this is just too good to be true." I just love these entries here.

You have, "Last great book I read was Feynman." You also mentioned Dawkins. And if you could take a class on any subject, Quantum Physics 101. I mean, that's just so cool! Let's see ...

S: Perry used to take that course.

B: Right. More on who I'm looking for section, she, Rebecca wrote, "Someone who likes science. And I'm looking some one who knows and understands that astrology is bull ..." whatever. (Rebecca laughs) No, really. It's funny, you go on. No, really! This is very important. I know it seems like common sense, but you'd be surprised. I also checked off that I was an agnostic looking for an agnostic or atheist.

I mean, there can't be too many entries in these online dating services like this.

R: (Chuckles) There really aren't. I definitely ...

B: Oh my god!

R: (Laughs) And, you know.

B: I'd be sending you an email if I was on that service.

R: Oh, that's very nice. You know, you can still send me an email. (Laughs)

B: Okay.

R: No, I, you know, I, in my blog, I write about the funny, really terrible responses I get. But to be fair, I did get a lot of really great responses too ...

B: Oh good!

R: from very cool people. I've been out on a lot of dates with scientists and ... I actually met some really cool people through that. So, and a lot of my friends today are ex-first dates off of there. So, I really can't complain, in general about.

B: Okay.

S: It's an interesting phenomenon, the whole online dating thing. I have to tell you, Perry met his wife online!

P: That would be accurate! (Laughs)

R: Oh! Really!

P: One of the early ones. Fairly early, anyways.

S: It actually worked out.

P: It did! (Laughs) Worked out very well.

R: Well, that gives a lot of people hope.

P: Absolutely.

R: I actually, I'm not on there any more, but it's mostly just because I don't have time any more, which is really kind of pathetic. But I have no time for going out any more.

P: Really?

S: Is the organization keeping you that busy?

R: Yeah! It's all skepchicks all the time now. It's okay, because it's, I find the skepchicks to be a lot more enjoyable than a lot of the dates, so (laughs). It's okay for now.

(Laughter)

P: Doesn't speak very highly of scientists!

R: The scientists have been great. It's, you know, it's the spiritual, not religious people, and, you know, those other types. But, I guess I should really go back on there if only to get more stories to write about. People seem to really enjoy those.

S: You could write a Sex and Skepticism column. Like a take off from the Sex in the City column.

R: That would be fun, actually. But I'm not sure I could really write a tell-all though. I think people would get angry, so ...

P: We recently had a little controversy in The Skeptic's Guide about the G-Spot, Rebecca. I don't know if you heard that.

R: I did hear that! And I was alarmed to find that you guys did not know that female ejaculation is a fact.

S: It's a fact, you're saying.

R: It's a fact. It is a confirmed fact.

E: I don't think that was the argument, though. Everyone was, was there a G-Spot that triggers the ejaculation?

S: Oh it was just, there were two separate questions. Is there a G-Spot, and is there female ejaculation? And we didn't really talk about the ejaculation part. Terry Hines mentioned it as an aside. The discussion was focused more about the G-Spot. But I confess my ignorance of the scientific evidence one way or another.

P: So back to female ejaculation ...

(Laughter)

P: Always a favorite topic of mine. I will admit, we're fairly ignorant on the topic.

R: It's documented. See, and that's why you need more female ...

P: Hear! Hear! I agree 1000%

E: Absolutely! No question ...

R: I'm here to get you guys in line. There's too much testosterone.

S: You're a believer in the G-Spot as well, just to be official about this? Just to get this on the record?

R: Actually, I am pretty, like, the G-Spot thing, unconfirmed. You know. And I have no evidence one way or the other, personally.

S: So you're agnostic about the G-Spot.

(Laughter)

R: Yeah, I am.

P: Do we have an open invitation to call you whenever these topics arise in the future, Rebecca?

R: Oh yeah! No, not only do you have an open invitation, it's a demand! You have to call me.

E: There you go.

S: You are our official skepchick consultant.

R: Yes.

S: Whenever these issues arise in the future.

E: Oh, man.

R: Yes, I expect one day to be out at the bar with friends, and to get a call of you guys on the podcast saying, "Okay, we have this question about orgasms."

(Laughter)

P: Anything remotely regarding female genitalia, you're there, Rebecca.

R: That's right.

P: Alright, good, good! It's good to know!

B: Rebecca, what other topics could we call you on? What are your areas of interest besides cereal, apparently, from your blog. If we have any cereal questions, we will definitely give you a call.

R: I'm an expert on cereal, I'm a cereal fanatic. Juggling, magic, female ejaculation ...

P: All those related topics.

R: Yeah, you know. It's all pretty much in that category.

S: How many items can you juggle at once?

R: Four.

S: That's impressive!

B: Wow!

P: Pretty good! That's pretty good!

R: Yeah, anybody you know who can juggle five, they're either a professional juggler, or insane, because ...

P: You ever seen Penn Jillette juggle those broken bottles?

E: Oh! He juggles everything.

P: It's absolutely astounding. Astounding.

R: Yeah. That's really great part of his act. I love that.

B: Did you guys read, I think it was the Discover Magazine a couple years ago, some, a juggler wrote in a very interesting article about juggling, and the mathematics of juggling. And he came up with some very unusual – god, how do I describe it – these weird algorithms that he could apply to juggling. It was a fascinating article! Unfortunately, I can't remember a lot of it. But it was very ...

S: It was all about the timing of when you throw up different ...

B: Right, right.

S: objects.

B: And he – my god – he was insane! I think, what was he juggling, Steve? Like 6, or 7, or 8 ... just some crazy number of things that he could juggle.

R: That's outrageous.

B: Yeah, he was pretty talented.

S: More uses for math. Juggling lots of weird stuff.

B: Right, there you go.

S: Well, Rebecca, it was an absolute pleasure to have you on The Skeptic's Guide.

R: Thank you! I had a lot of fun.

S: The time always seem to run out very quickly. I hope that you will join us again; and we'll absolutely keep you on our hotline for women in skepticism issues.

R: Great, yeah, keep me on speed dial.

S: What's in the future for the Skepchick org? Just plugging away at the calendar and your blog? Or you have anything new on the horizon?

R: Yeah, the calendars are coming together quickly. And we're just pumping out new issues of the online magazine. And it's getting bigger and better every month. So, definitely check it on March 15th is our next one. Glad to hear it. And again, that's at Skepchick.org. The links again will be on our notes page for this podcast.

Again, Rebecca, thanks for being on The Skeptic's Guide.

R: Thanks for having me.

B: Thank you, Rebecca.

P: Thanks, Rebecca. Bye bye.

E: Good night.

Wrap up (1:03:11)

S: So, what did you guys think about Rebecca Watson, the Skepchick?

P: She's terrific.

S: She was great!

B: She was awesome! Excellent!

S: It was really great having her ...

B: We gotta have her back!

S: Definitely.

B: Gotta have her back real soon.

E: I would also like to hear from other women out there who listen to this podcast, and get their thoughts on a lot of these things. It's great to have more females involved in this.

S: Send us your emails. Send us your voice mails, your voice recordings, so we could play one on our podcast. Definitely need to get more women involved in skepticism.

P: I'd also like to say that we saw Rebecca's calendar pictures I guess, and she's a hottie.

S: Yep. (Inaudible)

P: Absolutely. She is, yeah. She was great.

B: And she picked a good month – October! The best month!

P: Yeah! That's right.

S: So, that is all the time that we have for this week. Guys, thanks again. Always a pleasure. Bob, Perry, Evan.

P: Righto.

E: Yes sir! It was a pleasure.

B: That was a good episode, guys.

P: No problem.

S: For our listeners out there, we'll see you again next week. Until then, this is your Skeptic's Guide to the Universe.

S: The Skeptics' Guide to the Universe is a production of the New England Skeptical Society. For information on this and other episodes, please visit our website at www.theness.com. You can send us questions, comments, and suggestions to podcast@theness.com. 'Theorem' is performed by Kineto and is used with permission.

References