SGU Episode 385

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SGU Episode 385
1st Dec 2012
(brief caption for the episode icon)
SGU 384                      SGU 386
Skeptical Rogues
S: Steven Novella
B: Bob Novella
R: Rebecca Watson
J: Jay Novella
E: Evan Bernstein
Guest
BA: Banachek
Quote of the Week
I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. I have approximate answers and possible beliefs and different degrees of uncertainty about different things, but I am not absolutely sure of anything and there are many things I don't know anything about, such as whether it means anything to ask why we're here. I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell.
Richard Feynman
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Forum Discussion

Introduction

You're listening to the Skeptics' Guide to the Universe, your escape to reality.

S: Hello and welcome to the Skeptics' Guide to the Universe. Today is Monday, November 26, 2012, and this is your host, Steven Novella. Joining me this week are Bob Novella,

B: Hey, everybody.

S: Rebecca Watson,

R: Hello, everyone.

S: Jay Novella,

J: Hey, guys.

S: And Evan Bernstein.

E: Hi, everybody. I am still full from that Thanksgiving meal.

S: Still?

R: Yeah.

J: I really overdid it this year.

B: In the past few days I've had four meals consisting of just meatball lasagna. It's awesome.

This Day in Skepticism (00:40)

• December 1, 1948: Taman Shud Case: The body of an unidentified man is found in Adelaide, Australia; involving an undetectable poison and a secret code in a very rare book, the case remains unsolved and is "one of Australia's most profound mysteries".

S: But, what happened on this date in history, Rebecca?

R: On December 1, 1948, a grand mystery began based upon the death of a man whose name is still unknown. As you guys know, I'm flying Australia tomorrow to go a conference in Melbourne, and so in honor of that I wanted to do a this day in skeptic history that has an Australian bent. So this is a really interesting case. It's called The Taman Shud Case or The Mystery of the Somerton Man. So on December 1, 1948, a, the body of a man was discovered on a beach in Adelaide, Australia. And the man well dressed, he was wearing a suit, but no hat, which was odd for the time, apparently. And nobody knew who he was. His dental records were nonexistent. He had no distinguishing characteristics, really. There was no ID on him. So nobody could figure out who this guy was. Eventually he was connected with a suitcase, they found a suitcase that they realized was his because there was a thread in it that was very rare and matched stitching on the inside of this man's pants. So they figured that this must be his suitcase. But there was really nothing in there to give away any clues either. The weirdest thing was that they found sewn into one of his pockets, they found the torn off page from the Rubayat of Omar Khayyam. It's a famous book of poems, basically. And this man had in his pocket a little, a little bit of paper that had been torn off and all it said on the paper was "Taman Shud." I think I'm pronouncing that horribly wrong. But that's what it said. And the officials realized that that was the, that meant "ended" or "finished" and it was at the end of The Rubayat of Omar Khayyam, this collection of poems. And, so specifically it had been torn out, they realized it had been torn out of that book, a very specific edition of that book that didn't have any writing on the other side of the page, and they couldn't find any editions that were printed like that. All of the editions that they found had printing on both sides of the page where those words were. Until this guy came forward. He realized that, it hadn't occurred to him originally that this was connected to this unsolved mystery. But the night that the dead man apparently died, someone had placed a copy of The Rubayat of Omar Khayyam in the back seat of his unmarked car that was parked nearby. And sure enough, in the back, they found that that piece of paper had been torn out of that book. And in the book was a code. There were these seemingly random letters written in the back, but they, they look like a code. And nobody's been able to crack the code yet. Still nobody knows who this guy is. There've been a lot of people guessing that this is something to do with the Cold War. That he was a spy. There's also this other connection where there's a child who died mysteriously and is, was somehow connected with this guy because they both shared similar genetics, or not genetics. They both share similar medical oddities in their bodies that they feel that there's so much

B: Ooo. Like What?

R: It's something like, it's something weird about their ears. One of the things they both have like one part of their ear is longer than the other.

S: His cymba was bigger than his cavum.

R: Yes! That's what it is.

S: Characteristic of one to two percent of the Causasian population. He also had attached rather than hanging earlobes, which is a lesser, less common, variation.

R: Right. And there was one other thing. Oh, hypodontia. Some sort of thing with his incisors. That's only present in two percent of the population, and both the kid and this guy had it. And both died mysteriously, like they're not really sure how they died. The coroner thought that this guy was poisoned, but he has no, the poison didn't leave any trace, so they don't have any proof of that. So it's this huge, huge mystery that still hasn't been solved. There are researchers that are now asking if they can exhume the body so that they can test the DNA in order to figure out at least, like, the general area that this guy, like the country, maybe, that this guy came from. But apparently last year Attorney General John Rowell wouldn't let them exhume the body because he says, "There needs to be public interest reasons that go well beyond public curiosity or broad scientific interest." Which is bogus. What's wrong with broad scientific interest? Dig that body up. That's what I say.

E: That's right.

R: 'Cause it's a really interesting case. Like, you know, it's got everything that a good Hollywood thriller has. Except for the ending. It needs an ending. So. I thought that was really interesting. I'd never heard of it before, so.

E: And you're heading to Australia to figure it all out. Good luck, Rebecca.

R: I'm gonna break this one wide open.

E: Awesome.

R: I'm gonna solve this case.

News Items

Not-So-Terror Bird (06:22)

• Giant Eocene bird was 'gentle herbivore', study finds

S: Well, Jay, you're gonna tell us about a mystery that perhaps has recently been solved involving a very large bird.

J: So starting on January 5, 2009, a pineapple express storm hit the Pacific Northwest of the United States. Does everybody know what a pineapple express is?

B: No.

S: It comes from Hawaii?

E: It's a movie.

J: Yeah, that was a good guess, Steve. These types of storms come from the sub-tropical Pacific and dangerous because of the huge quantities of water that they dump, so without going into the details

S: And all the pineapples flying all over the place.

J: (laughing) Yeah, read about it. I'd never heard about it. It's, the name is for a storm that starts in the Pacific Northwest and then it, I guess, hits the United States. But if you're interested read more about that, but I had some fun reading about that. Never heard about a pineapple express before. So, like I said, these storms pick and dump an enormous amount of water. And this storm that I'm talking about that happened in 2009 hit the deeply snow-covered foothills of Whatcom Country in Washington, which is a state in the United States, and it delivered an incredibly huge deluge of rain and warm temperature water. The storm resulted in massive water accumulation in the snow that was already there, and it ended up causing significant landslides. However, the good news is that those landslides uncovered something really awesome. A study published in the journal Paleontology studied a set of footprints made 55.8 to 40.6 million years ago, and the footprints are preserved in sandstone and are believed to be none other than the long-extinct giant bird known as Diatryma. And Steve, I figured you really like this news item for a number of reasons, because you love dinosaurs and because you live birds.

S: That's redundant, but yeah.

R: Redundant.

E: Well, yeah.

J: Well, when I say "birds" I mean modern birds, okay?

E: Modern.

B: Modern day dinosaurs.

E: Avids.

S: So that, every time I make that distinction, somebody says "You mean non-avian dinosaurs."

E: No.

S: Whenever I say "dinosaurs" and I'm referring to non-avian dinosaurs, somebody pendanticly corrects me, you know "You mean non-avian dinosaurs." So the thing is if you're using the term "dinosaurs," this is gonna come up later in the show, too, if you're using the term "dinosaur" colloquially, people know what the hell you're talking about. You're talking about dinosaurs. You know, non-avian dinosaurs, not birds. While birds are in the dinosaur clade, I don't think anybody thinks of a sparrow as a dinosaur.

J: I agree. I'll continue my news item now.

R: That's the first thing that comes to mind, when somebody says "dinosaur." I think of a sparrow.

S: Sparrow?

E: Jack Sparrow.

J: Diatryma were giant flightless birds found as fossils in early Eosene rocks in North America and in Europe. The Eosene Epoch lasted 57.8 to 36.6 million years ago. So these monsters grew to a height of about 2-1/4 meters, or seven feet. It's a pretty big bird. It had small flightless wings and incredibly powerful legs most likely used for running. And it had a large head and an equally powerful beak. This big nasty beak. Because of the beak it's been previously thought that these guys were predators, eating small mammals. George Mustoe, a geologist, and team members studying the footprints said they're commonly thought as the bird that replaced dinosaurs as the top predator. But now that those footprints exist, they provide some evidence about what the birds ate and we're gonna see a shift here, and this is the way that science works when new evidence presents itself. Science's opinion or facts change on that subject. David Tucker, another researcher on this study said the tracks clearly show that the animals did not have long talons but rather short toenails. And this argues against an animal that catches prey and uses claws to hold it down. Carnivore birds all have sharp, long talons. That's a huge point. They were able to see that these birds didn't have the equipment to actually be flesh catchers and flesh eaters, which is significant here. Some early paleontologists concluded that because the Diatryma was big and with a huge head and beak it must have been a predator. But the first fossil they ever found was next to tiny horses and small animals and that kind of led to that, that premise and they just figured that those were its dead prey, which I thought was funny. That like, you know, this bird died next to its recent prey, which, you know, maybe there was a big battle, they thought, or whatever, but it's still kind of weird to think that they'd find the skeletal remains of a deadly predator right next to like three or four animals it just happened to be eating right before it died.

R: Oh, I don't know, Jay, they'll probably find you amidst, like a giant table of bacon.

J: Or meatballs. Yeah, okay.

R: Yeah.

J: All right. So, other scientists at the same time suggested that because their legs were short, they could not run fast enough to capture small prey, and they did not have a hooked beak, and that's huge, which is always found on raptors to help them tear flesh, leading them to think that they were herbivores. So even back in the day, there wasn't a total consensus on what the nature of these animals actually was. The fact that Diatryma did not have talons added greatly to the idea that they were herbivores. Mr. Mustoe added a more likely scenario than being a carnivore would be a gentle Diatryma that used its beak to harvest foilage, fruits, seeds, in sub-tropical forests that it inhabited.

S: Did you say foilage?

E: Foilage?

J: Foliage.

R: Foilage is what you wrap the foliage in for leftovers.

E: Yeah, foilage.

J: Did I say foilage?

S: You said foilage.

J: I meant foliage.

E: Well, we know what you meant.

J: You guys are like ridiculous pendants tonight.

(laughter)

J: All right, the team believes that the similarities of Diatryma to those of the carnivorous South American forosasits, or terror birds

E: Forest what?

S: Phorusrhacidae.

J: Phorusrhacidaes!

E: I was gonna say four-assed monkey, here.

J: a/k/a terror birds, for real – they call these guys terror birds.

B: I, they are my favorite extinct birds.

E: Look at those pictures.

B: They are magnificent, my god!

E: Terrifying.

J: So, those guys led early paleontologists to assume that the two were ecologically similar. And, what have we learned, guys?

R: That you can't pronounce words.

(laughter)

J: Yeah, I can't pronounce words that are spelled very strangely that I've only read and never said. Absolutely!

S: One thing that's interesting, 'cause when I first read the article it said "Terror birds not so terrifying." I'm like "really? Really? They're changing our understanding of the terror birds?" But they're just essentially saying that this North American cousin was an herbivore and was not similar to the South American, which have a . . . those, like titanis walleri, is one example, they had a curved beak, like a hawk, they had talons, like a raptor, and they had long legs for running, most of them.

B: And they were about, what, ten feet tall, Steve?

S: Nine feet, yeah, nine feet. So they were bigger. But there were about eighteen, I think, different species, and they varied in height and characteristics; some had shorter legs, some had longer legs. But some of them, like titanis, had all the characteristics they're saying are typical of a carnivore. Curved beak, talons, long legs for running. These, same bird, but a little smaller, no curved beak, no talons, shorter legs, but otherwise the same basic body plan. And one thing that was interesting, too, they were talking about the fact that the body plan is very similar to a T-Rex! Large head, small arms, large legs. Same basic kind of configuration.

B: Interesting.

S: Yeah. You basically have an avian T-Rex.

R: And the T-Rex is also being neutered, of course. Like every time we get more information about T-Rex, it becomes less terrible, too.

J: Being that, it would be really cool if these guys were herbivores, and some existed today, 'cause you might be able to ride them!

S: Yeah. That'd be cool.

B: Steve. Steve, did you hear this? I read that the terror birds primarily existed in South America, but, and they did, I think, for something like millions of years. They were like on top of the food chain for quite a long time. And I read, I remember reading somewhere, that they also, when South America joined North America, you know, Central America when they actually joined together, when a land bridge was first formed, they actually, I think if I'm remembering correctly, they migrated into North America and existed there for a little while, not very long.

S: Yeah.

B: But for a little while they actually were in North America.

S: That's correct. Their remains have been found in Texas and Florida. But they did not survive long, with the mixing of fauna in North and South America.

B: Yeah.

S: On both sides. They were victims exchange. Yeah, but they were, they did make it into the southern part of North America. Thanks, Jay, that's interesting. Always love talking about dinosaurs and birds.

Bloop Solved (15:35)

• Icequakes (Bloop)

S: But Rebecca, you're gonna, this is yet another mystery, this is the mystery theme for this evening. So you gave us a mystery, we've sort of solved the mystery about the nature of the North America large flightless birds, and there's another deep skeptical mystery, we've talked about on the show before, that has been solved!

R: Yeah. And to get back to the initial dead guy in Australia mystery, if that guy turns out to be just some guy that dropped dead of a heart attack or something, and it ended up not being a very cool story at all, if that were the case, then it would fit in perfectly with tonight's mysteries, because this is another mystery that has been solved in a way that is not particularly fun. Like, the mystery itself: lots of fun; the scientific explanation, I feel,

E: Bor-ing.

R: Not that much fun, yeah.

S: I like it, but go ahead.

R: Well, that's because you're super . . .

S: Just stop right there, okay.

(laughter)

R: So, yes. We have in the past discussed the "Bloop." The bloop noise that seemed to emanate somewhere from the ocean. It was recorded by several different deep-sea microphones back in '97. And, it's, you can, if you haven't heard the bloop,

S: Well let's play it for our listeners right now.

R: Yeah. Okay.

(Underwater sounds with the "bloop" that sounds like a bubble surfacing.)

S: That was sped up sixteen times, by the way. When it's, at normal speed you can barely hear it.

R: Yeah, it doesn't really sound like anything at all when it's normal speed. But, yeah, so, you can tell why it's called the bloop. And for years people have wondered what the hell is that, including scientists. They weren't really sure. They noticed that it sounded kind of like a living creature, the way that the sound is made, the, how it sounds, it sounds like it's being made by a creature and because it's so loud, like it was incredibly loud, and it was something that had never been recorded before. Never been heard before. They speculated that it could be something like a giant squid, like a really, really, really giant squid, living somewhere

E: Like larger than the blue whale squid.

R: Yeah, somewhere undetected.

E: Much larger.

R: So it was pretty exciting and scary to know that there was something, there was a possibility of some enormous creature lurking somewhere in the ocean that we haven't even heard of yet. We haven't even found yet. Well, it's not. So the recent discovery, according to Pacific Marine Environmental Laboratory, the bloop is, in fact, an ice quake. The name sound cool, but trust me, not as cool as a giant squid would have been.

S: Actually, quite cold.

R: (fake laugh)

S: Sorry.

R: Anyway.

J: Oh, god.

R: Yes,

E: I'm amused.

R: So scientists found that the bloop is in fact consistent with the noise that icebergs make as they crack and fracture. They've used microphones to record a number of these ice quakes since 1997, and they have found that the bloop fits it perfectly, in terms of loudness, what the wave forms look like, what it sounds like.

E: And the sound travels far. We're talking thousands of kilometers.

S: Yeah.

R: Yeah, because, I mean, the bloop was picked up by microphones that were 3,000 miles apart, so, yeah. This fits in with that as well, because, yeah, the sound can travel. So, yeah, it's just, just stupid global warming, that's all.

(laughter)

R: Boring.

E: It's what the sound of a dying planet sounds like.

R: Yeah.

E: Bloop!

S: Well, it's cool, it's an iceberg cracking up and it makes that low frequency noise.

R: Not as cool as a kraken

S: Who really thought it was gonna be some kind of kraken?

R: I thought it was gonna be a kraken. I had hope.

E: You were hoping it was gonna go along the lines of Cthulhu.

R: Yeah, I was hoping for, the end of all things.

J: That would be so terrifying. Have you ever been on a boat, and you just imagine some of gigantic kraken coming out of the water? Those really big things hiding under the ocean just freak me out.

R: Yeah.

J: That's too, too scary.

R: Yeah, ditto. That's why I love it, I love the idea of it. And I hate the scientists who have ripped this from my dreams.

E: Yeah. They've ruined it.

R: Stupid science. With your facts.

E: With your facts.

B: Rebecca, there's plenty of stuff in science to dream about. I'll talk to you later about it.

R: Better be scary.

(laughter)

E: It'll have something to do with zombies, I'm sure.

Hijacking DNA (20:46)

• Asexual, All-Female Animal’s Survival Trick: DNA Hijacking

S: So we're gonna shift from mysteries to a couple of DNA-related news items, starting with Bob, who's going to tell us about DNA hijacking.

B: Yeah. Thanks to Melissa G. who sent me a link to a great article about a creature that is now in my top three list of cool animals. They're tiny invertebrate organisms that're called bdelloid rotifers. Which, I don't like their name because it begins with a "b," I believe it's pronounced "delloid" rotifers. And there's a new genetic analysis out that shows that ten percent of their active genes were hijacked from at least 500 other species. These genes were taken from thing, creatures, like fungi, bacteria and plants, and so they're just all over the, taking whatever they need or want.

E: Like shopping in the grocery store.

B: Yeah, right?

E: I'll go to this aisle and take some of that.

B: And these are, as you can imagine, if you choose pretty much any genes you wanted in a sense, it gives them pretty amazing abilities. Unlike any other animals. And it has also allowed them to survive millions of years longer than evolutionary theory says that they otherwise probably would have. It's a fascinating story. So what are their super powers, is probably one of the first things you're interested in. They can actually survive incredible doses of ionizing radiation, so high that doses a hundred times less or one hundredth would be enough to take out even the hardiest human. They can also be desiccated, or completely dried out for at least nine years, I think, I believe nine years is the record. And then they can just, they come back in a matter of hours they come back pretty much like nothing's happened.

E: Wow!

B : And for example they've got two genes that they stole from bacteria that produce enzymes that can break down highly toxic chemicals like benzyl cyanide. So these are pretty interesting abilities that these guys just totally just grabbed from other species. The other amazing thing about them is that scientists have never found a male bdelloid. They've looked for a long time, they've never come across a male.

S: They're all chicks!

B: They're all females. In fact

E: They don't need male ones, apparently.

B: They don't, not at all. They've been asexual for eighty million years.

E: There you go.

B: That's a long, long time not to have sex. I don't think I could survive half that long. Asexual reproduction may not, you know, you hear about that all the time and it may not sound like a big deal and it's true for lots of different creatures like bacteria, of course, but these rotifers, though, are one of the only groups of animals to be, to have 100% abandoned sex. They reproduce through parthenogenesis, which means that the embryos grow and develop without the aid of any fertilization or anything. This, as a quick aside, I found this interesting: this is related to another form of asexual reproduction. Steve, have you heard of gynogenesis or pseudogamy? This method, it actually uses sperm or pollen to trigger the development of the egg cell into an embryo, but there's no genetic contribution at all. It just starts the process and then says "goodbye!" and there's no genetic addition at all, or contribution, which I found interesting. That's gynogenesis. Never heard of that one. So what makes the rotifer form of reproduction unusual is that one hundred percent asexual animals shouldn't really last eighty million years. According to the modern evolutionary theory, if you just looked at that information as it is, you would say that eighty million years just seems like an awfully long time for something, for a creature or species to last, because, obviously there's no genetic shuffling, there's no genetic variation that allows the species to rapidly adapt to whatever changing environment. And also the effects of maladapted genes as well. So this, of course, may yet be another benefit of this genetic hijacking. Being able to co-opt genes from other species not only gave them their cool super-powers, but it's also helped them live for tens of millions of years and diversify into, I think, hundreds, three or four hundred different distinct species. I love the term scientists have given them. They call them genetic mosaics, which I think is really beautifully descriptive. So then the next question, of course, is, well how do they pull this off? Scientists aren't a hundred percent sure but one theory I read about seems to pretty much describe what I think is probably happening, or at least hopefully happening, because this is a really fascinating process. And it's all related to desiccation. When these guys get all dried out and they enter into their dormant state, it's called hydrobiosis; when they emerge from this process they go through a genetic transformation of sorts that, as far as I can tell, is unique in the animal kingdom. Desiccation, as you can imagine, breaks cell membranes and breaks apart the DNA. I mean, take all the water out, all these biological components are just getting, are just busted apart, and that sounds pretty nasty, and it is, but obviously they can repair these injuries, which of course is amazing in and of itself. But the broken DNA, before it gets repaired, actually opens an amazing opportunity for these creatures to insert other DNA between the broken parts in the genetic code. And this is, maybe, how they pull this off. And this DNA can come, this is really cool, the DNA can come from anything that's in the nearby environment, even if it's partially digested food. They can take any type, any of the DNA that might be nearby, even from this food, incorporate in their genome, and bam! There you go. Super-organism that could digest and survive radiation and do all sorts of amazing stuff. So, check this guy out. I think they're fascinating and they deserve to be on anyone's top five list.

S: So, there is another species that hijacks DNA. Bob, did you hear about this?

B: Which one?

S: The corbicula. It's a clam. These are all male though. They're genetically male. They're hermaphrodites, so they produce their own sperm and egg and essentially clone themselves. But they also will, they'll steal the eggs of other species and will incorporate some of the genes, sometimes. They'll incorporate the genes from those other species of clams.

B: Oh, wow.

S: Not as wide ranging as what you're talking about, but similar. All one sex, reproduce by asexual cloning, in this case they're hermaphrodites that produce their own egg and sperm, but are viable because they're stealing genetic variation from other species.

B: Wow, that's pretty cool. I gotta look them up.

Bigfoot DNA (27:17)

• Sasquatch DNA Study Announcement

This section is in the middle of being transcribed by banjopine (talk) as of {{{date}}}. To help avoid duplication, please do not transcribe this section while this message is displayed.

Makemake (39:31)

• Dwarf planet Makemake examined for the first time

Who's That Noisy? (42:14)

Last Week's Puzzle: Three people are interviewing for a job and are given a test. The first person to solve the test gets the job. Each person is given a hat that is either black or red. They must put the hat on and cannot look at the hat or use any method to directly discover its color. The three applicants are then put in the same room, and each is further instructed to raise their hand if at least one of the other two applicants is wearing a black hat. The task is to figure out the color of the hat they are wearing. One applicant sees that the other two applicants are wearing black hats and both have their arms raised. After a moment the applicant states that they have solved the puzzle and that they are wearing a black hat. How did they solve the riddle? Sent in by James Powell

Questions and Emails

Theory (45:35)

I'm a chemistry and environmental science teacher, and I love (and occasionally use in class) your podcast. Still, my pedantic nature cringes at the free use of the word "theory" on the podcast. The SGU frequently substitutes the word "theory" for more the appropriate terms "hypothesis", "conjecture", or "study". A good example of this was the recent news topic on the relationship between asteroid belts and extraterrestrial life. While an interesting study, it could, at most, be called a hypothesis, but it definitely doesn't have the experimental evidence or depth of explanation to be a theory. Since the SGU sometimes criticizes others' misuse and misinterpretation of the word "theory", please be careful. Very truly yours, Jim White Boston, MA

Interview with Banachek (47:56)

• http://www.banachek.org/

Science or Fiction (59:50)

Item #1 A recent study shows that exposing the unborn and very young to traffic pollution can more than double the autism risk. Item #2 To get the best look at a person's face, people focus first on mouths. Item #3 Writing negative thoughts down and then throwing them away helps people not to think of them.

Skeptical Quote of the Week (1:15:58)

I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. I have approximate answers and possible beliefs and different degrees of uncertainty about different things, but I am not absolutely sure of anything and there are many things I don't know anything about, such as whether it means anything to ask why we're here. I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell.

Richard Feynman

Announcements

SGU Year-end Wrap up episode (1:16:40)

• SGU Forums: 2012 Show Wrap Up Special!!!

Jay and George on Inkredulous (1:17:40)

• InKredulous – Episode #016

Support the SGU (1:17:56)

• Store / Support the SGU

References