https://www.sgutranscripts.org/w/index.php?title=SGU_Episode_123&feed=atom&action=historySGU Episode 123 - Revision history2024-03-29T14:13:56ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.35.13https://www.sgutranscripts.org/w/index.php?title=SGU_Episode_123&diff=15769&oldid=prevXanderox: pipe added2022-08-18T20:18:56Z<p>pipe added</p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left diff-editfont-monospace" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 20:18, 18 August 2022</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l271" >Line 271:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 271:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Let's take things one at a time. First, that we don't do research into the paranormal. His primary piece of evidence for this was because when we [[SGU Episode 23#Interview with Jan Helen McGee, Psychic Detective|interviewed Jan Helen McGee]] at the end of 2005, we agreed with her that we would test her ability as a psychic detective and that when a suitable case, local to us here in Connecticut, cropped up, that we would get her to give a psychic reading on that. And we haven't had an opportunity to do that since we agreed to do the test. This is due to a couple of reasons: one is because I think in retrospect, our criteria for a suitable case is probably too difficult. I wanted a case that was local to us that she would not have direct access to, that was fresh enough that we were likely to get... that was still unsolved, but was fresh enough that we would be getting an outcome within a reasonable period of time. So I didn't want cold cases or cases that are unsolved and who knows how long they would take. They can't be cases that we just find through the popular media because then she could find out all the information that we could find out. I wanted to control this as much as possible. But also, the fact is, we're extremely busy and things like that tend to get back-burnered. It's hard for us to really keep on top of everything and follow through with everything that we want to follow through on. So, but he was concluding from that that we're unwilling to do the research, that we're unwilling to even do personal explorations into this kind of stuff. And that is a completely unfair, completely, patently, factually false claim, and either he really hasn't been paying attention or listening to our show, or he just has not&mdash;the facts are just not penetrating, which is what I really think.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Let's take things one at a time. First, that we don't do research into the paranormal. His primary piece of evidence for this was because when we [[SGU Episode 23#Interview with Jan Helen McGee, Psychic Detective|interviewed Jan Helen McGee]] at the end of 2005, we agreed with her that we would test her ability as a psychic detective and that when a suitable case, local to us here in Connecticut, cropped up, that we would get her to give a psychic reading on that. And we haven't had an opportunity to do that since we agreed to do the test. This is due to a couple of reasons: one is because I think in retrospect, our criteria for a suitable case is probably too difficult. I wanted a case that was local to us that she would not have direct access to, that was fresh enough that we were likely to get... that was still unsolved, but was fresh enough that we would be getting an outcome within a reasonable period of time. So I didn't want cold cases or cases that are unsolved and who knows how long they would take. They can't be cases that we just find through the popular media because then she could find out all the information that we could find out. I wanted to control this as much as possible. But also, the fact is, we're extremely busy and things like that tend to get back-burnered. It's hard for us to really keep on top of everything and follow through with everything that we want to follow through on. So, but he was concluding from that that we're unwilling to do the research, that we're unwilling to even do personal explorations into this kind of stuff. And that is a completely unfair, completely, patently, factually false claim, and either he really hasn't been paying attention or listening to our show, or he just has not&mdash;the facts are just not penetrating, which is what I really think.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>For example, at the end, he gives a challenge to skeptics to get a psychic reading; find a "good psychic" and don't give them any feedback and then score their results. And Jay and I were chatting about this before the show. It's just one of those happy coincidences of quirkinesses of randomness and fate that pretty much exactly what he said skeptics should do to convince themselves is exactly what we did last weekend&mdash;or two weekends ago and reported on last week's podcast{{Link_needed}}, just by coincidence. We went to a psychic fair; we had a reading with three different psychics; these were psychics that had reputations that were being promoted by the organisation. They were not obscure or anything; they were as good as anybody out there. And we recorded the entire process, and guess what, Alex? They scored zippo.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>For example, at the end, he gives a challenge to skeptics to get a psychic reading; find a "good psychic" and don't give them any feedback and then score their results. And Jay and I were chatting about this before the show. It's just one of those happy coincidences of quirkinesses of randomness and fate that pretty much exactly what he said skeptics should do to convince themselves is exactly what we did last weekend&mdash;or two weekends ago and reported on last week's podcast{{Link_needed<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">|</ins>}}, just by coincidence. We went to a psychic fair; we had a reading with three different psychics; these were psychics that had reputations that were being promoted by the organisation. They were not obscure or anything; they were as good as anybody out there. And we recorded the entire process, and guess what, Alex? They scored zippo.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>E: Zero!</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>E: Zero!</div></td></tr>
</table>Xanderoxhttps://www.sgutranscripts.org/w/index.php?title=SGU_Episode_123&diff=13838&oldid=prevXanderox: /* Psychic Ripoff (18:24) */ fixed broken link2021-09-06T22:53:34Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Psychic Ripoff (18:24): </span> fixed broken link</span></p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left diff-editfont-monospace" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 22:53, 6 September 2021</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l137" >Line 137:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 137:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Psychic Ripoff <small>(18:24)</small>==</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Psychic Ripoff <small>(18:24)</small>==</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* The Rogues Gallery: [<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">http</del>://theness.com/roguesgallery/index.php/skepticism/another-psychic-rips-off-someone/ Another Psychic Rips off Someone]</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* The Rogues Gallery: [<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">https://web.archive.org/web/20140903193412/https</ins>://theness.com/roguesgallery/index.php/skepticism/another-psychic-rips-off-someone/ Another Psychic Rips off Someone]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>S: And Rebecca, the third item comes from your blog this week about another fairly dramatic psychic rip-off.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>S: And Rebecca, the third item comes from your blog this week about another fairly dramatic psychic rip-off.</div></td></tr>
</table>Xanderoxhttps://www.sgutranscripts.org/w/index.php?title=SGU_Episode_123&diff=8809&oldid=prevAv8rmike: Add categories with comments2014-03-08T20:09:28Z<p>Add categories with comments</p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left diff-editfont-monospace" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 20:09, 8 March 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l3" >Line 3:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 3:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>|links = y</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>|links = y</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>|Today I Learned list = y</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>|Today I Learned list = y</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|categories = y</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>|segment redirects = y <!-- redirect pages for segments with head-line type titles --></div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>|segment redirects = y <!-- redirect pages for segments with head-line type titles --></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>|}}</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>|}}</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l795" >Line 795:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 794:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{Navigation}}</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{Navigation}}</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{Page categories</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Alternative Medicine = y <!-- WiFi & Autism --></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Cons, Scams & Hoaxes = y <!-- Psychic Ripoff --></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Creationism & ID = y <!-- Science & Faith --></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|ESP = y <!-- Skeptiko vs SGU --></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Myths & Misconceptions = y <!-- Skeptiko vs SGU --></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Neuroscience & Psychology = y <!-- Computer Brain --></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Pseudoscience = y <!-- Skeptiko vs SGU --></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Science & Medicine = y <!-- WiFi & Autism --></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Science & the Media = y <!-- Science & Faith --></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|SGU = y <!-- Skeptiko vs SGU --></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Technology = y <!-- Computer Brain, WiFi & Autism --></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Other = y <!-- Skeptiko vs SGU --></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">}}</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Av8rmikehttps://www.sgutranscripts.org/w/index.php?title=SGU_Episode_123&diff=8785&oldid=prevAv8rmike: SoF with links and finish transcript2014-02-27T03:51:47Z<p>SoF with links and finish transcript</p>
<a href="//www.sgutranscripts.org/w/index.php?title=SGU_Episode_123&diff=8785&oldid=8780">Show changes</a>Av8rmikehttps://www.sgutranscripts.org/w/index.php?title=SGU_Episode_123&diff=8780&oldid=prevAv8rmike: Proof-read the first half2014-02-23T05:25:58Z<p>Proof-read the first half</p>
<a href="//www.sgutranscripts.org/w/index.php?title=SGU_Episode_123&diff=8780&oldid=8779">Show changes</a>Av8rmikehttps://www.sgutranscripts.org/w/index.php?title=SGU_Episode_123&diff=8779&oldid=prevAv8rmike: /* Questions and E-mails (30:58) */ Finish segment2014-02-23T04:18:38Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Questions and E-mails (30:58): </span> Finish segment</span></p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left diff-editfont-monospace" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 04:18, 23 February 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l355" >Line 355:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 355:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>J: So, Steve, let's say that you did have 10%, and then you conducted the next study. There was enough interest there. And then you tighten up your science; you're double blind; you're doing it better next time; you're really digging in now. And then... OK, and this is what, supposedly, this is the way that scientific research is supposedly to work&mdash;then you would have a much more clear picture of what's happening. So that's my question. OK, so there's 4%. So they do another study. So they get 4%. So they do another study, and they get 4%. The number never goes up. They never get anywhere with it. It just remains the same.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>J: So, Steve, let's say that you did have 10%, and then you conducted the next study. There was enough interest there. And then you tighten up your science; you're double blind; you're doing it better next time; you're really digging in now. And then... OK, and this is what, supposedly, this is the way that scientific research is supposedly to work&mdash;then you would have a much more clear picture of what's happening. So that's my question. OK, so there's 4%. So they do another study. So they get 4%. So they do another study, and they get 4%. The number never goes up. They never get anywhere with it. It just remains the same.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>S: Yeah. And the same is true of the <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">ganzfeld </del>experiments, where initially they were saying, "oh, 20, 30% effect size. Let's clean up the methodology. Oh, it's 10%. Oh, let's fix this. Oh, it's 4%."</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>S: Yeah. And the same is true of the <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">{{w|Ganzfeld experiment|Ganzfeld </ins>experiments<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">}}</ins>, where initially they were saying, "oh, 20, 30% effect size. Let's clean up the methodology. Oh, it's 10%. Oh, let's fix this. Oh, it's 4%."</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>E: It disappears.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>E: It disappears.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l363" >Line 363:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 363:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Just for the record, I did e-mail Alex and invite him on our show so that he could defend himself directly. I did not give him much leeway, so it's not really&mdash;I'm not saying that he refused to come on, or he might not have have even gotten my e-mail yet, but just wanted to let the audience know. I did invite him on, and I'm willing to have him on the show at a later date if he decides to come on. Be happy to have this conversation with him directly. This all happened very quickly, so he didn't really get much notice for tonight's show.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Just for the record, I did e-mail Alex and invite him on our show so that he could defend himself directly. I did not give him much leeway, so it's not really&mdash;I'm not saying that he refused to come on, or he might not have have even gotten my e-mail yet, but just wanted to let the audience know. I did invite him on, and I'm willing to have him on the show at a later date if he decides to come on. Be happy to have this conversation with him directly. This all happened very quickly, so he didn't really get much notice for tonight's show.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">[51</del>:<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">52]</del></div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">J</ins>: <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">When he started the show, I gave a listen to it and my initial impression was, "well, you know, this is interesting. He has a different attitude; he kind of believes both in skepticism and in the supernatural in some degree. Let it play itself out." We didn't criticize his podcast&mdash;I don't think we've ever criticized any podcast on this show. After he interviewed you, Steve, I sent him an e-mail, and I told him I thought he did a great job with the interview and I thought it was a very good show. I think we were very civil with him, even though we saw the podcast slipping into much more of a pseudo-scientific direction. We never talked bad about him in any way. Out of the blue he decides that he's going to rabbit punch us. Didn't&mdash;</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">E: Make an example of us.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">J: Yeah. Didn't initiate the conversation.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: I don't think this is out of the blue if you were paying attention. And also, Jay, this is exactly what we experience every time. We had our long-term relationship with Ed and Lorraine Warren; it was the same thing. Very civil; very nice; we're just interested in doing observations, but as the results of our analysis were going against them, they turned on us. At one point it dawned on Ed Warren that we were not going to endorse his crappy evidence. And then, the switch flips and then he's against us. And the same thing with Alex. I mean, Alex just didn't realize&mdash;and he still doesn't get&mdash;he doesn't understand the difference between his position and the skeptical position. That's because he never really made an honest attempt to understand the skeptical position. Clearly, 'cause he clearly doesn't understand it. And you know, eventually just realized that "wait, these people aren't all coming over to my way of seeing things. The problem must be with them. So, I'm gonna attack them." That was the process.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Very quickly, since he brought up Richard Wiseman's experiment, let me go over that. Very, very quickly. He said that Rupert Sheldrake did an experiment where he looked at the ability for a dog to know when their master is coming home. So, he had one crew watching the dog at home, another crew out with the owner. When the owner decides to come home, the dog goes out to the porch to wait for him. So as if there was some kind of psychic connection. Richard Wiseman replicated the research, but instead of using more open-ended criteria, he said, "OK, you have to have some specific criterion for what we're going to count as a hit". So he said "OK, if the dog goes out to the porch the first time, that's what we'll count as the dog anticipating the owner coming home". And the result was negative. Based upon some feedback, he said "OK, maybe there's too much noise in there, so let's say the first time the dog goes out to the porch for more than two minutes, we'll consider that a positive outcome". They did the study; it was negative. So, Wiseman says, "I replicated the research; it was negative". Sheldrake then says, "well, no, you have to look at all of the doggie behaviour and you do an analysis of the patterns, and the dog is more likely to go out to the porch to spend more time there at the time that the master is returning home". And if you go back and look at Wiseman's video, that the dogs follow that same pattern. And then, Alex, thinking he ''had'' Wiseman&mdash;you know, he has that "gotcha" moment; it's like, "I got Wiseman. 'Cause Wiseman admitted that the pattern was same and that he replicated Sheldrake's research and now he still won't admit that that's proof of psi, so I got him. He's a hypocrite". But Alex completely... on the show, he didn't even acknowledge Wiseman's response to that. He's accusing us of not knowing the literature and being up on the latest thing. He dinged Wiseman for that, whereas Wiseman spelled out ''in detail'' why he thinks that the studies still don't show evidence for psi. One is, because we have no idea that Sheldrake wasn't just retro-dicting, looking for patterns and then declaring that a positive. Wiseman set the criteria up ahead of time, and even revised them to try to make it more fair. And it still was negative. The other thing is that Wiseman brought up&mdash;very, very good point&mdash;that if you hypothesize that when the owner leaves, the longer the owner is away, the more anxious the dog is going to get for the owner's return. So the dog will go to the porch more and more frequently and spend more and more time there until the owner returns. And of course, the owner returning ends the cycle. So the dog will have spent the most time at the porch right before the owner comes home. So that explains ''all'' the data without hypothesizing a psychic ESP connection between the dog and the owner. That's why Wiseman didn't think it was evidence for psi. It's a completely, perfectly reasonable interpretation of that research.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">B: Occam's razor.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: And Alex missed it. Completely missed it, and he was criticizing Wiseman for being a hypocrite.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">E: So was Sheldrake employing the {{w|Texas sharpshooter fallacy}}?</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: We don't know, because he didn't really publish his methods in a way that we could know, you know?</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">E: Hmm.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: The reason why we're spending so much time talking about this&mdash;it's partly because he directly challenged us, but... everything that Alex said, this is the ''standard'' line of the psi community. This is what they ''all'' say. All the points that Alex makes; this is the party line of the paranormal believers.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">J: I think what we need to do is, first off, we need to take Alex up on his challenge; we will go find three more&mdash;I think he asked for the skeptic to go to three mediums.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: Yeah.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">J: We'll go to three mediums; we will&mdash;</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: Again.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">J: Again. We will do it exactly the way he wants; whatever criteria that he wants, we'll do.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: Hey Alex, you can even choose the mediums. Choose the three best psychics, mediums you want.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">J: And we will do this and we will report on this and, you know, we should pick a date&mdash;a time limit, so we make sure that we do complete it in a reasonable amount of time.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: Well, you know, if he picks 'em, we'll make a weekend and we'll go. We'll do it. We'll pick subjects that&mdash;not us. People that we know that the psychics will not know and cannot get information on. We'll record it and we'll score it. But... I do have to say that Alex again is proposing this protocol and it's really naive; it's just incredibly naive because it's all in the scoring. It's all in how you score the hits and misses. And he completely does not consider the phenomenon of looking for specifics and generalities. That's how psychics make it seem as if they're being specific when they're not. Like when Rebecca and I sat at that one woman&mdash;she said, "I see a uniform". First she said, "policeman or..."</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">R: Fireman.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: Fireman. "Policeman or fireman". Yeah, then we didn't endorse that, they said, "some kind of uniform". That's something that ''sounds'' specific, but I mean, come on. Think of... who doesn't have somebody in their life that doesn't have some kind of uniform?</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">E: I wore a uniform when I was eight years old!</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: It's something that's designed to be&mdash;to sound specific when it really isn't. So, we'd have to decide how we were really going to score the reading. But you know what? I'm convinced enough that if we trained the subjects not to give positive feedback that they'll perform as terribly as the three psychics we sat with a couple weeks ago.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">E: Zero.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: And they'll get only the random, occasional vague hit. One final point is that Alex accused us of having basically a double standard, of changing the rules, changing the nature of the game for psi research. And again, it's just incredibly naive on his part. You know, I interpret medical literature every day and apply it to my practice. And I apply the same kind of standards to medical research. If a drug company was trying to get me to prescribe their drug because it had a 5% effect size, I would laugh at them. I mean, again, that's just noise in the system. So, he's making that accusation without any factual basis whatsoever. And if he actually knew how science functioned, he would know&mdash;or even just me personally&mdash;he would know that we're applying the same rules to psi as we do to other research, not different rules; he just doesn't know what those rules are.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">J: That being said...</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: ''(deep voice)'' With that...</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">E: ''(chuckles)'' That horse has been clubbed sufficiently.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Science or Fiction <small>(1:00:01)</small>==</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Science or Fiction <small>(1:00:01)</small>==</div></td></tr>
</table>Av8rmikehttps://www.sgutranscripts.org/w/index.php?title=SGU_Episode_123&diff=8776&oldid=prevAv8rmike: More Skeptiko segment2014-02-16T15:13:13Z<p>More Skeptiko segment</p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left diff-editfont-monospace" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 15:13, 16 February 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l72" >Line 72:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 72:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>J: Ok, because I say that, "I have faith in the scientific method" because from my perspective I'm saying that I'm banking on the proof upon proof that science has delivered over the years...</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>J: Ok, because I say that, "I have faith in the scientific method" because from my perspective I'm saying that I'm banking on the proof upon proof that science has delivered over the years...</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>S: Right, so we hear this a lot from the intelligent design crowd and I'm sure they love this kind of editorials, because this is their mantra: the notion that you have to have faith in science or faith in evolution, and that they've been complaining endlessly. And this is Phillip Johnson who basically started the Intelligent Design movement, this was his core premise: that science should not be based upon the assumption of naturalism, because that's rigging the game. That's rigging the game against supernatural or spiritual explanations. And they're continuing to make that case. In fact, in preparation for our show tonight I was listening to an episode of <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Skeptico </del>- the podcast <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Skeptico </del>- from a few episodes ago where he interviewed an Intelligent Design proponent, and that's what it was all about. It was all about "scientists are assuming philosophical naturalism and they're not following the evidence where it goes, they're only restricting their enquiry to naturalistic explanations and that's not fair, that's rigging the game". What that misses is that methodological naturalism is not a choice, it's a necessity. Without limiting the answers that we're willing to consider to the ones that fit our paradigm we're limiting the questions to ones that can be answered scientifically. If you can't formulate your hypothesis in a way that can be tested, it can be falsified, then it doesn't meet the minimum criteria for being considered as science. They totally do not get that, and that's true at the spiritual end, like the Intelligent Design proponents, and it's true on the New Age end, like Alex from <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Skeptico</del>. Because they were in complete agreement on this point, that skeptics and scientists are feeding into their own assumption of philosophical naturalism and it's completely untrue.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>S: Right, so we hear this a lot from the intelligent design crowd and I'm sure they love this kind of editorials, because this is their mantra: the notion that you have to have faith in science or faith in evolution, and that they've been complaining endlessly. And this is Phillip Johnson who basically started the Intelligent Design movement, this was his core premise: that science should not be based upon the assumption of naturalism, because that's rigging the game. That's rigging the game against supernatural or spiritual explanations. And they're continuing to make that case. In fact, in preparation for our show tonight I was listening to an episode of <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Skeptiko </ins>- the podcast <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Skeptiko </ins>- from a few episodes ago where he interviewed an Intelligent Design proponent, and that's what it was all about. It was all about "scientists are assuming philosophical naturalism and they're not following the evidence where it goes, they're only restricting their enquiry to naturalistic explanations and that's not fair, that's rigging the game". What that misses is that methodological naturalism is not a choice, it's a necessity. Without limiting the answers that we're willing to consider to the ones that fit our paradigm we're limiting the questions to ones that can be answered scientifically. If you can't formulate your hypothesis in a way that can be tested, it can be falsified, then it doesn't meet the minimum criteria for being considered as science. They totally do not get that, and that's true at the spiritual end, like the Intelligent Design proponents, and it's true on the New Age end, like Alex from <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Skeptiko</ins>. Because they were in complete agreement on this point, that skeptics and scientists are feeding into their own assumption of philosophical naturalism and it's completely untrue.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>J: What I don't understand is they're going back to what Carl Sagan said so eloquently: science delivers the goods. Science in and of itself is a system that has been proven over and over and over again to work.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>J: What I don't understand is they're going back to what Carl Sagan said so eloquently: science delivers the goods. Science in and of itself is a system that has been proven over and over and over again to work.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l348" >Line 348:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 348:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>S: The fact that we lack these things in those areas for which there is no plausible mechanism, I think is not a coincidence. But let's just look at those four criteria. So what we'll get from people like Alex is, "well, look at this study has good statistical significance, and this study has good methodology". And maybe you have two or even three of those things, but never all four at the same time. You have studies which show large effect sizes, but then as you improve the methods, the effect sizes shrink. Or you have small studies that have no statistical significance. Or whatever. Now, Dean Radin's meta-analysis showed that&mdash;looking at all of the&mdash;what he considered all of the quality studies, showed that the effect size, with 50-50 being chance, the effect size was about 55%. A 5% variance. Now it was statistically significant because there was tons of trials that were run, and this was after the methodology evolved, so that the obvious methodological flaws were removed. So you have... Let's grant good methodology. Let's grant replication. Let's grant statistical significance. Effect size teeny-tiny. Why is it that the effect size is so small? So what Alex doesn't understand is that we're not compelled by tiny effect sizes because, to be compelled by it, the unstated major premise is that perfect methodology should produce an effect size of zero. Meaning that there's no noise in the system. Meaning that we're able to conduct trials with people and get everything perfect. And that's just not the case. That's not what we see in science. When you get down to single-digit effect sizes, we assume that's the noise in the system; that that's a null effect. Negative. So I look at that data, and I see "oh! As the methodology improved, the effect size shrank". And when you pool everything together, you get down to an effect size of about 4 or 5%. Dean Radin himself, in his own analysis admits that there's a publication bias, and if you take that into account, the effect size shrinks further. But it doesn't get all the way to zero. So maybe we're down to 3 or 4%. That's negative, folks! That's negative. Alex finds that ''absolutely'' compelling enough to say that the materialistic paradigm is ''dead'' based upon a 4% variance.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>S: The fact that we lack these things in those areas for which there is no plausible mechanism, I think is not a coincidence. But let's just look at those four criteria. So what we'll get from people like Alex is, "well, look at this study has good statistical significance, and this study has good methodology". And maybe you have two or even three of those things, but never all four at the same time. You have studies which show large effect sizes, but then as you improve the methods, the effect sizes shrink. Or you have small studies that have no statistical significance. Or whatever. Now, Dean Radin's meta-analysis showed that&mdash;looking at all of the&mdash;what he considered all of the quality studies, showed that the effect size, with 50-50 being chance, the effect size was about 55%. A 5% variance. Now it was statistically significant because there was tons of trials that were run, and this was after the methodology evolved, so that the obvious methodological flaws were removed. So you have... Let's grant good methodology. Let's grant replication. Let's grant statistical significance. Effect size teeny-tiny. Why is it that the effect size is so small? So what Alex doesn't understand is that we're not compelled by tiny effect sizes because, to be compelled by it, the unstated major premise is that perfect methodology should produce an effect size of zero. Meaning that there's no noise in the system. Meaning that we're able to conduct trials with people and get everything perfect. And that's just not the case. That's not what we see in science. When you get down to single-digit effect sizes, we assume that's the noise in the system; that that's a null effect. Negative. So I look at that data, and I see "oh! As the methodology improved, the effect size shrank". And when you pool everything together, you get down to an effect size of about 4 or 5%. Dean Radin himself, in his own analysis admits that there's a publication bias, and if you take that into account, the effect size shrinks further. But it doesn't get all the way to zero. So maybe we're down to 3 or 4%. That's negative, folks! That's negative. Alex finds that ''absolutely'' compelling enough to say that the materialistic paradigm is ''dead'' based upon a 4% variance.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">J: Steve, what would the number have to be in order for the light to go on?</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">S: It depends on what you're doing research in, but when you're dealing with people anywhere in the system, we like to see effect sizes of&mdash;to say that this is compelling, you like to see effect sizes of 30% or so. To say that it's interesting, this is something we need to look at, I would like to see at least a 20% effect size. And then if you have some really objective outcome measures and minimal potential for unforeseen biases in the way the data is being collected, maybe like 10 to 20% is like&mdash;that's borderline. You know, that's where it's like, "eh, that's kind of small. Not really convinced by it, but maybe there's something there". Less than 10% doesn't even deserve a pass. I mean, that's just&mdash;single digit is noise.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">J: So, Steve, let's say that you did have 10%, and then you conducted the next study. There was enough interest there. And then you tighten up your science; you're double blind; you're doing it better next time; you're really digging in now. And then... OK, and this is what, supposedly, this is the way that scientific research is supposedly to work&mdash;then you would have a much more clear picture of what's happening. So that's my question. OK, so there's 4%. So they do another study. So they get 4%. So they do another study, and they get 4%. The number never goes up. They never get anywhere with it. It just remains the same.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">S: Yeah. And the same is true of the ganzfeld experiments, where initially they were saying, "oh, 20, 30% effect size. Let's clean up the methodology. Oh, it's 10%. Oh, let's fix this. Oh, it's 4%."</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">E: It disappears.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">S: "But look, it's very statistically significant". No. It's shrunk to noise. And listen&mdash;I ''do'' do research. You know, not in this area, but I do do research, and I realize how easy it is to throw a little bias into the numbers. Just to give you and example&mdash;I'm not saying that any of this thing actually happened, but just to give you an example of a really easy way in which subtle bias can creep in to this kind of study. Let's say you run a series and the results are not looking good and then you think to yourself, "huh, did I calibrate my equipment properly? You know, let's start over and calibrate the equipment and then go forward and just not count this trial". You know, how do I know that that kind of stuff's not happening in any of these studies? That's not necessarily even conscious fraud; it may be completely legitimate to think that you gotta, whatever, run some controls before... But if... you might be more likely to think to do that if the result&mdash;if you just happen to be on a negative streak than if you had a few positive in there. Maybe you would not think or do anything to sacrifice those. And again, this is just a hypothetical example. But there's a hundred things like that, where ''really'' subtle bias can creep into studies like this. So, you just can't believe effect sizes that are that tiny. But Alex does. And even... The thing is, at least admit that that's the difference. At least&mdash;I tried to explain to him, this is what the difference is; this is why you believe one thing and I believe something else. Instead, he's talking about paradigms and being afraid of changing our world view and being dismissive and not knowing the literature. It really was a whiny, insulting, really childish approach that he took to the whole thing.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Just for the record, I did e-mail Alex and invite him on our show so that he could defend himself directly. I did not give him much leeway, so it's not really&mdash;I'm not saying that he refused to come on, or he might not have have even gotten my e-mail yet, but just wanted to let the audience know. I did invite him on, and I'm willing to have him on the show at a later date if he decides to come on. Be happy to have this conversation with him directly. This all happened very quickly, so he didn't really get much notice for tonight's show.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[51:52]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Science or Fiction <small>(1:00:01)</small>==</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Science or Fiction <small>(1:00:01)</small>==</div></td></tr>
</table>Av8rmikehttps://www.sgutranscripts.org/w/index.php?title=SGU_Episode_123&diff=8775&oldid=prevAv8rmike: /* Questions and E-mails (30:58) */2014-02-15T22:24:26Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Questions and E-mails (30:58)</span></span></p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left diff-editfont-monospace" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 22:24, 15 February 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l281" >Line 281:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 281:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>E: Plus, Alex cites us as the example, like somehow this is very common no matter what skeptics you're talking to, whether you're talking to James Randi, whether you're also talking to the people at [http://www.csicop.org CSI]. I mean, forget it. Between {{w|Joe Nickell}} and James Randi, do you know how many investigations and research that they've done into these things over the course of the years? It's plentiful. It's bountiful. And Alex brings up the Jan Helen McGee as "that's typical of what skeptics are all about". It's so wrong.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>E: Plus, Alex cites us as the example, like somehow this is very common no matter what skeptics you're talking to, whether you're talking to James Randi, whether you're also talking to the people at [http://www.csicop.org CSI]. I mean, forget it. Between {{w|Joe Nickell}} and James Randi, do you know how many investigations and research that they've done into these things over the course of the years? It's plentiful. It's bountiful. And Alex brings up the Jan Helen McGee as "that's typical of what skeptics are all about". It's so wrong.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>S: Yeah; Richard Wiseman, which he brings up, does investigations and collaborates with paranormal researchers. Ray Hyman has done research and has collaborated with others on this. So, it's just a patently absurd charge. In fact, the skeptics are the ''only'' ones who are doing these kind of research and investigations. Mainstream scientists are generally not doing it because they know it's all bunk and they're not interested in it. So, he's... and I told him this during&mdash;when I was interviewed for his show, that skeptics are scientists or scientifically minded individuals who are showing interest in these areas because of the great public interest in them. And we're doing them a favor. If it weren't for us, nobody would care about this. I mean, nobody in the scientific community. Obviously, the public has an interest in it.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>S: Yeah; Richard Wiseman, which he brings up, does investigations and collaborates with paranormal researchers. <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">{{w|</ins>Ray Hyman<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">}} </ins>has done research and has collaborated with others on this. So, it's just a patently absurd charge. In fact, the skeptics are the ''only'' ones who are doing these kind of research and investigations. Mainstream scientists are generally not doing it because they know it's all bunk and they're not interested in it. So, he's... and I told him this during&mdash;when I was interviewed for his show, that skeptics are scientists or scientifically minded individuals who are showing interest in these areas because of the great public interest in them. And we're doing them a favor. If it weren't for us, nobody would care about this. I mean, nobody in the scientific community. Obviously, the public has an interest in it.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">[38</del>:<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">21]</del></div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">J</ins>: <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Steve. You know, I think this would be a good opportunity for us to mention Richard from {{w|Australian Skeptics#The Tank Vodcast|The Tank}}. He does research, right, Rebecca?</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: {{w|Richard Saunders (skeptic)|Richard Saunders}}?</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">R: Richard Saunders. And also, today is his birthday. F.Y.I.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: Happy birthday, Richard.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">R: Happy birthday, Richard.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">J: Remember Skeptics West? We met them at TAM 5. Didn't they do research? I don't remember when we talked to them.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">E/S: CFI West. {{w|Center for Inquiry}} West.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: Absolutely.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">E: That's Jim Underdown&mdash;</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">R: Jim Underdown.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">E: &mdash;runs the show out there.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">R: {{w|Ben Radford}}. Yeah.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: It's also a complete non sequitur. You know? And we hear this from the UFO people, Bigfoot people, not just the ESP enthusiasts. Everyone who does not like skeptical attention to their claims and their methods tries to pull this one on us. "Well, you're not really doing research yourself; you're just nay-sayers". It's irrelevant. Everyone... even if you do research full time and that's your job, whatever research you do is only a tiny, tiny slice of all the research that's gets done. Even in your area; forget about the broader areas of science. Because of the consilience of science, because of interdisciplinary science, you ''have to'' rely upon the research of people or adjacent or tangential areas to your own. You have to develop the ability and the skill to interpret the literature, even if you're not doing research in that area. And what scientific skeptics are trying to do is provide the kind of peer review and critical analysis that typically happens in mainstream science and apply that to more of these fringe areas, because the mainstream scientists are ignoring it out of hand, usually. It really is incredible that Alex has chosen to attack the skeptics because he doesn't like the conclusions that we come to.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">J: Well, he's&mdash;one of his premises was that he was&mdash;he sounded to me, actually, to be very disappointed that his podcast didn't actually fuel a lot of this heated debate between fringe research and skeptics. I think that's what he wanted Skeptiko to do. And what he ended up getting was much more of a dismissal from the skeptics that he was interviewing as "listen! There's nothing here to chew on. It's worthless. It's a dead end and it's a waste of time".</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: But you know, Jay, that was a totally self-fulfilling prophecy on his part.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">E: Yep.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: You know, he&mdash;if you listen to these interviews, there was no learning curve for Alex over the 30 interviews&mdash;shows that he has done, over the interviews that he has done. He went into this with certain biases and assumptions clearly demonstrated in his interview styles and the questions that he asked. And he showed no learning curve, meaning that the kind of things that people&mdash;that skeptics were telling him along the way, he never incorporated into his thinking. The things that he was ranting about on this most recent episode are things that I addressed when I was interviewed on his show. It's as if it never happened. Like the discussion was never even taking place in his mind. He was just cherry-picking quotes from the skeptics in order to support his ''a priori'' assumptions. The big assumption that he makes is that&mdash;and he says he discovered this as he started to explore that, and that's fine. Let's say, early on, he said, "wow! There's a lot of evidence for psi. How come scientists and skeptics are not as compelled and impressed by this as I am?" But he very quickly, if not initially, very quickly got to the conclusion that there was compelling evidence for psi. And he could not understand, even though I laid it out for him, and others have laid it out for him in ''detail'', he could not understand or accept that scientists and skeptics have legitimate reasons for not being compelled by that evidence. And in fact, on my interview with him, I told him, "that is the key&mdash;you're trying to understand the gulf between skeptics and believers? That's it. It's why are you compelled by the evidence and why am I not compelled by the evidence? That's where we should focus our discussion." He never went there. He never wanted to go there. He only&mdash;</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">E: He had pre-conceived notions.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: Yeah, I mean obviously. He only went to... he proceeded from the conclusion that it was compelling. And then he... his reasoning is, "well, if it's compelling, and skeptics don't accept it, then they're just dismissing it and ignoring it". Or they're... then that leads him to the conclusion that, "well, we must be ''afraid''". We're afraid of the implications of this research because we have to protect our precious materialist paradigm.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">J: Yeah, or he... he also claims that because it doesn't fit into our ideology, we ignore it and reject any evidence that has come up that proves that, for example, like {{w|Dean Radin}}.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: Yeah.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">J: His research supposedly proves that there's precognition.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">B: Well, he would... Alex would respond, I think, saying that&mdash;didn't he mention in his podcast that Radin's research has been duplicated? Is that true?</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: Replicated. Let me get to that, because he does focus on&mdash;his next premise is that skeptics don't read the literature. And again, he arrives at that conclusion based upon his assumption, his premise, that there's compelling evidence. And therefore, we must not be reading the literature, 'cause we would then see the same compelling evidence that he does. And he uses Dean Radin's experiments as an example, and he uses the dogs anticipating when their owners are coming home as an example. And let me address those two that he discussed in his last podcast.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">So, Dean Radin's experiments. Dean Radin did a meta-analysis of studies looking at the ability for people to know, psychically, when they're being stared at. So, they show some evidence that they know that they're being stared at, even when they're not getting any sensory cues to that effect. And he took Ray Hyman to task and through that, took me to task for not being familiar with the latest meta-analysis that Dean Radin did about this. And he still is clinging to that; he's really clinging to this&mdash;"See? They're not looking at this research, which is compelling". Well, I ''did'' review Dean Radin's meta-analysis of this literature. And this is a perfect example of why I'm not compelled by the evidence and why Alex and Dean Radin and Rupert Sheldrake and Marilyn Schlitz and that crowd ''is'' compelled by it: Because they're not good scientists. And they don't get it. In order for a science to be compelling enough to establish a new phenomenon in science, we need to see a few things: We need to see science that has good methodology, where any artifacts are weeded out. We need to see results that are statistically significant. We need to see replication, so we know it's just not one lab or one guy. And we need to see an effect size that's above noise. And we need to see all of those things at the same time. And that's what&mdash;</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">B: Throw in a mechanism. That would be nice.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: I'm not even going there, Bob.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">B: Yeah, I know, but it would be nice. It would be nice.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: Mechanism; that'd be the icing on the cake.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">B: Right.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: But let's just say we don't understand enough to know what the mechanism would be. Let's just decide if it exists as a phenomenon. Then we could worry later about the mechanism.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">B: Right.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">S: The fact that we lack these things in those areas for which there is no plausible mechanism, I think is not a coincidence. But let's just look at those four criteria. So what we'll get from people like Alex is, "well, look at this study has good statistical significance, and this study has good methodology". And maybe you have two or even three of those things, but never all four at the same time. You have studies which show large effect sizes, but then as you improve the methods, the effect sizes shrink. Or you have small studies that have no statistical significance. Or whatever. Now, Dean Radin's meta-analysis showed that&mdash;looking at all of the&mdash;what he considered all of the quality studies, showed that the effect size, with 50-50 being chance, the effect size was about 55%. A 5% variance. Now it was statistically significant because there was tons of trials that were run, and this was after the methodology evolved, so that the obvious methodological flaws were removed. So you have... Let's grant good methodology. Let's grant replication. Let's grant statistical significance. Effect size teeny-tiny. Why is it that the effect size is so small? So what Alex doesn't understand is that we're not compelled by tiny effect sizes because, to be compelled by it, the unstated major premise is that perfect methodology should produce an effect size of zero. Meaning that there's no noise in the system. Meaning that we're able to conduct trials with people and get everything perfect. And that's just not the case. That's not what we see in science. When you get down to single-digit effect sizes, we assume that's the noise in the system; that that's a null effect. Negative. So I look at that data, and I see "oh! As the methodology improved, the effect size shrank". And when you pool everything together, you get down to an effect size of about 4 or 5%. Dean Radin himself, in his own analysis admits that there's a publication bias, and if you take that into account, the effect size shrinks further. But it doesn't get all the way to zero. So maybe we're down to 3 or 4%. That's negative, folks! That's negative. Alex finds that ''absolutely'' compelling enough to say that the materialistic paradigm is ''dead'' based upon a 4% variance.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Science or Fiction <small>(1:00:01)</small>==</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Science or Fiction <small>(1:00:01)</small>==</div></td></tr>
</table>Av8rmikehttps://www.sgutranscripts.org/w/index.php?title=SGU_Episode_123&diff=8769&oldid=prevAv8rmike: /* Questions and E-mails (30:58) */2014-02-15T00:34:19Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Questions and E-mails (30:58)</span></span></p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left diff-editfont-monospace" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 00:34, 15 February 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l267" >Line 267:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 267:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Let's take things one at a time. First, that we don't do research into the paranormal. His primary piece of evidence for this was because when we [[SGU Episode 23#Interview with Jan Helen McGee, Psychic Detective|interviewed Jan Helen McGee]] at the end of 2005, we agreed with her that we would test her ability as a psychic detective and that when a suitable case, local to us here in Connecticut, cropped up, that we would get her to give a psychic reading on that. And we haven't had an opportunity to do that since we agreed to do the test. This is due to a couple of reasons: one is because I think in retrospect, our criteria for a suitable case is probably too difficult. I wanted a case that was local to us that she would not have direct access to, that was fresh enough that we were likely to get... that was still unsolved, but was fresh enough that we would be getting an outcome within a reasonable period of time. So I didn't want cold cases or cases that are unsolved and who knows how long they would take. They can't be cases that we just find through the popular media because then she could find out all the information that we could find out. I wanted to control this as much as possible. But also, the fact is, we're extremely busy and things like that tend to get back-burnered. It's hard for us to really keep on top of everything and follow through with everything that we want to follow through on. So, but he was concluding from that that we're unwilling to do the research, that we're unwilling to even do personal explorations into this kind of stuff. And that is a completely unfair, completely, patently, factually false claim, and either he really hasn't been paying attention or listening to our show, or he just has not&mdash;the facts are just not penetrating, which is what I really think.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Let's take things one at a time. First, that we don't do research into the paranormal. His primary piece of evidence for this was because when we [[SGU Episode 23#Interview with Jan Helen McGee, Psychic Detective|interviewed Jan Helen McGee]] at the end of 2005, we agreed with her that we would test her ability as a psychic detective and that when a suitable case, local to us here in Connecticut, cropped up, that we would get her to give a psychic reading on that. And we haven't had an opportunity to do that since we agreed to do the test. This is due to a couple of reasons: one is because I think in retrospect, our criteria for a suitable case is probably too difficult. I wanted a case that was local to us that she would not have direct access to, that was fresh enough that we were likely to get... that was still unsolved, but was fresh enough that we would be getting an outcome within a reasonable period of time. So I didn't want cold cases or cases that are unsolved and who knows how long they would take. They can't be cases that we just find through the popular media because then she could find out all the information that we could find out. I wanted to control this as much as possible. But also, the fact is, we're extremely busy and things like that tend to get back-burnered. It's hard for us to really keep on top of everything and follow through with everything that we want to follow through on. So, but he was concluding from that that we're unwilling to do the research, that we're unwilling to even do personal explorations into this kind of stuff. And that is a completely unfair, completely, patently, factually false claim, and either he really hasn't been paying attention or listening to our show, or he just has not&mdash;the facts are just not penetrating, which is what I really think.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">For example, at the end, he gives a challenge to skeptics to get a psychic reading; find a "good psychic" and don't give them any feedback and then score their results. And Jay and I were chatting about this before the show. It's just one of those happy coincidences of quirkinesses of randomness and fate that pretty much exactly what he said skeptics should do to convince themselves is exactly what we did last weekend&mdash;or two weekends ago and reported on last week's podcast{{Link_needed}}, just by coincidence. We went to a psychic fair; we had a reading with three different psychics; these were psychics that had reputations that were being promoted by the organisation. They were not obscure or anything; they were as good as anybody out there. And we recorded the entire process, and guess what, Alex? They scored zippo.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">E: Zero!</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">S: They didn't even come close. It was pathetic. And just just to run down some of the things else we've done&mdash;we've never turned away an offer to do research. We were contacted by some local investigators who thought they had good evidence for electronic voice phenomenon. We went on a reading with them; we went into the field with them to look at their methods; we looked at all their evidence. We said, "give us your best piece of evidence"; they did; we looked at it. We investigated the {{w|Ed and Lorraine Warren|Warrens}}; again, give us your best evidence; we looked at anything they would give us.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">J: And that was a long-term investigation; that was not&mdash;</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">S: That was long term. We've done preliminary investigations for the {{w|One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge|Randi psychic challenge}} looking at the {{w|Ouija}} board guys, the psychic guy, people who claimed to have ESP. We've investigated multiple local ghost-hunting organisations and allegedly haunted houses. So, we do this kind of basic investigatory research, not lab research. We're not lab researchers in parapsychology. But we'll investigate anything anybody wants to show us, so.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">J: And if anything, to be honest, if we had more time, if we weren't all working 40+ hours a week, I would love to do this every day. If this could be my full-time job, I would do it, but it just doesn't work out that way.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">E: Plus, Alex cites us as the example, like somehow this is very common no matter what skeptics you're talking to, whether you're talking to James Randi, whether you're also talking to the people at [http://www.csicop.org CSI]. I mean, forget it. Between {{w|Joe Nickell}} and James Randi, do you know how many investigations and research that they've done into these things over the course of the years? It's plentiful. It's bountiful. And Alex brings up the Jan Helen McGee as "that's typical of what skeptics are all about". It's so wrong.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">S: Yeah; Richard Wiseman, which he brings up, does investigations and collaborates with paranormal researchers. Ray Hyman has done research and has collaborated with others on this. So, it's just a patently absurd charge. In fact, the skeptics are the ''only'' ones who are doing these kind of research and investigations. Mainstream scientists are generally not doing it because they know it's all bunk and they're not interested in it. So, he's... and I told him this during&mdash;when I was interviewed for his show, that skeptics are scientists or scientifically minded individuals who are showing interest in these areas because of the great public interest in them. And we're doing them a favor. If it weren't for us, nobody would care about this. I mean, nobody in the scientific community. Obviously, the public has an interest in it.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[38:21]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Science or Fiction <small>(1:00:01)</small>==</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Science or Fiction <small>(1:00:01)</small>==</div></td></tr>
</table>Av8rmikehttps://www.sgutranscripts.org/w/index.php?title=SGU_Episode_123&diff=8768&oldid=prevAv8rmike: Fix WP links and start e-mail segment2014-02-14T21:52:32Z<p>Fix WP links and start e-mail segment</p>
<a href="//www.sgutranscripts.org/w/index.php?title=SGU_Episode_123&diff=8768&oldid=7788">Show changes</a>Av8rmike